Next-Wave:

McLaren: It’s all been kind of strange, and I try not to think about it too much. The good news is that I continue to get a strong stream of emails, letters, etc., saying that my work is helping people.  These notes are often very moving — like bring-tears-to-your-eyes moving — and they help me not be preoccupied with the people who think I’m a villain, heretic, and all-around bad guy.  I’m not a fighter by nature … so I don’t like controversy.  At heart I’m a contemplative, so this much attention can be rough.  At least I don’t have to worry about that verse, “Woe to you when all people speak well of you” any more! Processing all this and seeking to respond in a God-honoring way is a great growth opportunity for character, prayer life, etc. 

Next-Wave: Some of us hope that the “Last Word” is not the last word from Dan Poole and his friend, Neil Oliver, is saying ‘to hell’ with hell the last we are going hear from these characters?

McLaren: I hadn’t planned on taking them any farther.  But you never know. Sometimes I think about picking up one of the minor characters someday.

Next-Wave: Why is hell such a thorny issue for Christians?

McLaren: All of us who have a high view of Scripture don’t want to blunt its sharp edges; we want to be faithful to Scripture, and to God — even when it’s hard to do so.  Yet — as I try to show in the book — the Bible’s treatment of hell and judgment is significantly more nuanced, multifaceted, and rich than the conventional teaching we often hear. Grappling with the Bible’s complex of teachings on hell and judgment seems to run up against the picture of God we get in the Bible: how do we reconcile the two?  That’s not easy.  It calls into question our hermeneutic (way of interpreting) as well.  What do we do with a subject that is never mentioned in the Old Testament, that arises in the Inter-testamental period and is not universally accepted (except by Jesus’ main antagonists), and then is handled by Jesus in fascinating, sophisticated ways? Add to that the varied ways the apostles deal with the subject (or don’t deal with it) … and you have a pretty challenging situation.

Next-Wave: Is it true that your book is saying that “hell” is a myth?

McLaren: No.  I never say anything like that.

Next-Wave: In your experience as a pastor, have you found that “hell” serves as a deterrent for sin?

McLaren:  Not very much.  Most Christians feel that they don’t need to face any sort of judgment, much less hell.  The only people who need to worry about hell, in their minds, are the people who generally don’t worry about it.

I think if we had a stronger sense of the reality, presence, purpose, love, holiness, justice, and inevitability of God … that would strengthen sin-deterrence powerfully.

But in the end, I think it’s more our practices that help us avoid sin, not only our concepts.

Next-Wave: What’s at issue with the four main Christian perspectives on the afterlife—exclusivism, inclusivism, conditionalism and universalism, and what difference does it make to an ordinary Christian who isn’t interested in rhetorical analysis or systematic theology?

McLaren: I think that people can be good Christians with any of these views, and I also think they can be bad Christians.  One of my biggest concerns, though, is that a hell-focused understanding of the gospel distracts us from the real message of Jesus – which is the kingdom of God.  I think what would help us most would be a kingdom-focused understanding of the gospel, and I hope this book prepares the way for that.

Next-Wave: Your book proposes a new understanding of the relationship between justice and mercy in the Bible and in God’s character. Could you explain?

McLaren: With this book, I feel a lot like the dancer who was asked what her performance meant. She replied, “If I could have said it, I wouldn’t have had to dance it.” So it’s hard to sum up, but let me frame it in this way, as a question: what if justice and mercy aren’t two separate things, but rather two sides of the same thing, namely, goodness?  What if God’s justice is always merciful and God’s mercy is always just?  What if the two aren’t opposed to one another, but rather are integrated in God, just as they are in, say, a good parent or teacher or judge or king?  This is one of Jesus’ main points, I believe, in the sermon on the mount: it’s one of the ways that his “righteousness” exceeds that of the scribes and the Pharisees: their justice lacks mercy, but for Jesus, the two always go together.