Bill Dahl and Reggie

Bill Dahl – I devoured the book and ranked it #3 in my BEST Books of 2011. This is a book that moves the earth beneath your feet, rewires the arteries in your heart, and causes one to reconsider what you think you know about discipleship. In my opinion, this is a terribly important book….frightfully important. Thus, I have taken ample care and time in considering the weave for the context of the questions below for David to respond to.

David Kinnaman

David Kinnaman is President of the Barna Group – unequivocally a significant, ongoing source of reliable social research about Christians, Christianity and the Church in the U.S.. David has designed and analyzed a wide range of projects for a variety of churches, parachurch organizations and for-profit clients. As a spokesperson for the firm’s research, he is frequently quoted in major media outlets. He also speaks and writes about new models of church experience, the profile of young leaders, and generational changes. In 2007, Kinnaman released his first book, unChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks About Christianity…and Why It Matters.

Here we go:

1.      How are you and your family doing?

We are doing well. Everyone is excited about the holidays. My wife and kids are serious elves: decorating, baking, ornamenting, lighting things. My mom keeps calling from Arizona trying to find out what day we will arrive. I love December. It’s my wedding anniversary and my birthday…. And, oh yeah, Christmas. Thanks for asking.

2.      Context: Allow me to construct the context for my question — Rick Warren has written: “God wants you to be in regular, close fellowship with other believers so you can develop the skill of loving. Love cannot be learned in isolation. You have to be around people – irritating, imperfect, frustrating people.” He states that we learn three things through fellowship: a. Life without love is really worthless b) Love lasts forever (leaves a legacy) c) We will be evaluated on our love — It is not enough just to say relationships are important; we must prove it by investing time in them. Words alone are worthless. Relationships take time and effort, and the best way to spell love is “T-I-M-E.”(The Purpose Driven Life – Zondervan – pp. 124-127). Question: In terms of the research that is the basis for “You Lost Me…Why Young Christians Are Leaving Church…And Rethinking Faith” – can you illuminate a few parallels between the above from Pastor Warren and what your research reveals as laid out in your book?

I think this is a perceptive question. Our research leads me to conclude that many of us try to shortcut our way to building a faith legacy with the next generation. But it really does require more of a commitment to give of ourselves to the teens and young people around us. Most of the young adults we interviewed said they did not have a trusted adult friend at their church while they were growing up. In other words, in many cases we do not take the time to really become friends with young people.

And youth ministers, even at their best, should not put be expected to befriend all the students that come through youth group. It is not a youth pastor’s job to become “friends” with everyone. It has to be a church wide, intergenerational commitment to make friendships with young people — really loving them — a priority.

3.      Context: In his book, A Whole New Mind – Moving From The Information Age to the Conceptual Age, (2005 – Riverhead/Penguin USA), author Daniel H. Pink writes: “The last few decades have belonged to a certain kind of person with a certain kind of mind — computer programmers who could crank code, lawyers who could craft contracts, MBA’s who could crunch numbers. But the keys to the kingdom are changing hands. The future belongs to a very different kind of person with a very different kind of mind — creators and empathizers, pattern recognizers and meaning makers. These people — artists, inventors, designers, storytellers, caregivers, consolers, big picture thinkers — will now reap society’s richest rewards and share it’s greatest joys.” Question: You write on page 15, “As a faith community we need a whole new mind (emphasis is mine) to see that the way we develop young people’s faith – the way we have been teaching them to engage the world as disciples of Christ—is inadequate for the issues concerns and sensibilities of the world we ask them to change for God.” In Romans Chapter 12:1-2, Paul exhorts the church to “be transformed by the renewal of your mind.” — What is the parallel between your use of the term “a whole new mind” and the same phrase used by Daniel Pink and the Apostle Paul – as it relates to the “dropout” problem your book so succinctly describes?

Again, great question! Daniel Pink’s book was a big inspiration to me. This shift from right-brain to left-brain thinking is descriptive of the growing gap between the generations. Today’s younger Christians are not just sort of different than previous generations. They are very different, and the shift to right-brained aptitudes — things you mention above — are very much part of younger adults’ profile. In fact, the church is losing many of the kinds of people Pink identifies. Look at the list again — the kinds of people Pink says will reap society’s rewards. These are also the kinds of people struggling with their experience of Christianity. That’s a recipe for disaster, to have the culture shapers most disillusioned by the Christian faith.

Then, you raised the question of scriptural connections. One of the key biblical references for me was Isaiah 43:19 (Behold, I am about to do a brand-new thing… do you not perceive it?). Also, Jesus’ description of new wineskins relates to the subject at hand. God is always doing “new” things. But we are more comfortable in our ruts. And the next generation is paying the price for our lack of inspired thinking.

4.      Context: You state the following in your book: “We are at a critical point in the life of the North American church; the Christian community must rethink our efforts to make disciples. Many of the assumptions on which we have built our work with young people are rooted in the modern, mechanistic and mass-production paradigms. Some (though not all) ministries have taken cues from the assembly line, doing everything possible to streamline the manufacture of shiny new Jesus-followers, fresh from the factory floor. But disciples cannot be mass produced. Disciples are handmade, one relationship at a time.” (pp.12-13). In his book, Out of Our Minds – Learning To Be Creative,” Sir Ken Robinson writes: “We all live our lives guided by ideas to which we are devoted but which may no longer be true or relevant. We are hypnotized or enthralled by them. To move forward we have to shake free of them.” (p. 7). Question: What are several “ideas” identified through your research that the current factories of “disciple-making” must “shake free of” or unlearn – to reverse the dropout trend?

We need to unlearn the idea that the more people who attend our group, the more disciples we are making. We need to caution ourselves in the most strident possible way that our Twitter and Facebook following is not a discipleship headcount.

Think of it this way: we know that parents of young children and prospective college students seek classrooms with favorable student-to-teacher ratios. No one chooses classrooms that have more students. We generally desire the most intimate of instructional settings. But we somehow have bought into the notion that the bigger our ministries, the more people we are making an impact on.

That’s just not the model Jesus used. I think we need to relearn mentoring, and better yet, rethink apprenticeship. We desperately need to find new models of mentoring and apprenticeship in order to properly develop the faith of today’s youth and young adults. In fact, we need this kind of intimacy in our faith development more than ever, regardless of our age.

5.      Context: You write: “When the Christian faith is no longer autopilot for the broader culture, Christians who are comfortably in two worlds can orient the Christian community toward faithfulness in a new setting.” (p.86). For more clarification for readers of this interview, you are drawing a parallel between what you define as “current-day exiles” and a close study of how God has used “exiles” in the Bible. In Author Steven Johnson’s work, Where Good Ideas Come From – The Natural History of Innovation, (Riverhead Books/The Penguin Group 2010), he states: we are often better served by connecting ideas than we are by protecting them. Like the free market itself, the case for restricting the flow of innovation has long been buttressed by appeals to the “natural “ order of things. But the truth is, when one looks at innovation in nature and in culture, environments that build walls around good ideas tend to be less innovative in the long run than more open-ended environments. Good ideas may not want to be free, but they do want to connect, fuse, recombine. They want to reinvent themselves by crossing conceptual borders. They want to complete each other as much as they want to compete.” P.22 (emphasis is mine). Question: How might communities of believers begin to “tear down the walls” that suffocate many good ideas, particularly those who can be identified as “exiles” – Christians who are comfortably in two worlds can orient the Christian community toward faithfulness in a new setting.”

The world is flat, as Thomas Friedman has persuasively written. And this is not more true than with the next generation. Their media (largely the Internet and video gaming) is bidirectional and interactive. The expect to participate and to dialogue. They want to mix it up. The globe feels like it’s shrinking and more accessible to them. Most churches and faith communities are not comfortable with this new participatory future.

This is part of the reason why there is such suspicion toward authority. They have come to expect more give and take. We can be threatened by this and shut down. Or we can see the tremendous opportunity for the Gospel. I think the generation must be confronted with the false hope of their narcissism. But they can also find the Christian community willing to engage them with truth and dialogue and participation. Jesus trusted his Church to a messed-up bunch of men after just three years of participatory ministry. That’s more trust than we typically show toward the next generation of leaders and influencers.

6.      Context: In their book, “Surveying The Religious Landscape – Trends in U.S. Beliefs,” George Gallup Jr. and D. Michael Lindsay wrote: “Spirituality in America may be three thousand miles wide, but it  remains only three inches deep” (1999 – Morehouse Publishing). You write in You Lost Me in  2011 regarding young adults: “The Christianity they believe is an inch deep….Thus, the Christianity some churches pass on is a mile wide. Put the two together and you get a generation of young believers whose faith is an inch deep and a mile wide — too shallow to survive and too broad to make a difference”(pp.114-115). Which is followed by your thesis that “the Christian church in the U.S. has a shallow faith problem” — and – “we have a shallow faith problem among all adults” (p.120 – emphasis is yours).Question: As a leader of a community of believers, where does one start with addressing this, seemingly enduring “depth” issue?

That is such a challenging question. I think we need to first appreciate the rich faith legacy we have in this country. The fact that more than 7 out of 10 Americans call themselves a Christian is a remarkable fact and a reason for hope. Most of us want to think of ourselves as believers!

Of course, our faith leaves much to be desired. And I guess it comes down to two simple insights we might learn from Jesus: (1) being willing to tell the culture the truth (you wicked and perverse generation), but (2) working out the spiritual depth problem in your own life first. I think part of the reason we struggle is that we are so busy worrying about other churches, other Christians that we fail to keep growing ourselves. Matthew 6:33 says we should, ourselves, seek first the kingdom.

I wonder if we spent more time pursuing the Father ourselves — and modeling that for the next generation — if we wouldn’t be better off. I have a deep faith today, such as it is, because of what I saw modeled in my parents and grandparents lives. Not because they spent so much time worrying about the problems in the world.

One more thought on this: I hope our research and writing (like in unChristian and You Lost Me) helps point people to addressing gaps in their own life first, before it causes them to hand-wring about everyone else’s problems. Research is strange that way, because it can be abused when it simply creates this overwhelming sense of hopelessness.

The shallow faith problem in America is daunting. But it’s not really our problem to solve. It’s God’s. We can only work out our own feeble faith with fear and trembling.

7.      Context: Dr. Billy Graham has written: “numbers by themselves are never a true indication of what God accomplishes.” (Just As I am – The Autobiography of Billy Graham pp.133-134 1997 HarperSanFrancisco & Zondervan). You suggest in You Lost Me, “What if, instead of measuring our success by the numbers we changed our metrics…that the hallmark of mature Christianity is a willingness to invest in a young person for a period of two to four years, teaching him or her the fine art of following Christ” (p.128). QUESTION: In terms of the “depth issue” referred to in question # 6 above, how do we go about “measuring” whether one is “qualified” to invest in the mentoring of a young person? What might “qualified” look like? Might one look for “qualified personnel” amongst those “outside” an established church community?

Lots of stuff here and a whole book could be written on this. Of course, I think the idea of measurement is important. And I agree with Billy Graham. I would say it this way: we have to be careful not to measure what is important to man and miss what is important to God.

I find it interesting that what is important to God is very difficult to measure: a broken and contrite heart. But these are not impossible to find. I think we should be searching for teachability, eager pliability to learn and grow, willingness to apologize, people who are able to think about themselves in the third person, through the power of the Holy Spirit. We should be looking for these characteristics in both mentors and their apprentices. Jesus was the Son of God, yet he had this readiness to learn from his father.

I guess this means the most important leadership quality is pliable, ready, willing souls.

8.      Question: What tools are currently readily available to measure “spiritual growth and transformation” in young adults (or adults for that matter), that you might be aware of?

The best tool should come from our own clarity about what we are trying to create in young people. We need to first start with the hard work of being very clear and concrete in what we think counts before God. And then we should develop some process to “notice” those things in the lives of young adults.

You might think of creating five questions before and after a sermon series that measure the key outcomes – both knowledge and attitudes. Then use the same questions at the end of the sermon series to see if your teaching had any effect.

9.      Context: a central thesis of You Lost Me is every story matters. This thesis assumes several things a) somebody cares b) somebody is willing to listen c) there is a huge “relational” component to capturing the essence of this opportunity. You also suggest moving away from “experts” to another mode of relationship development within the Christian community. Question: What might that look like?

I think that the Christian community does care about the lives of individuals. That’s what got most pastors into this line of work. Most of the influencers in ministry (paid or volunteer) want to see transformation in the lives of people.

The relational opportunity is huge, but it is the hard part. I think we have the interest, just not always the capacity to love people the way we should. Part of the key to this might be the next generation. They are highly relational. They want to get out there and engage the world. They want to be involved and invested in the lives of others. I think helping them to understand the relational opportunity and to become God’s listeners and healers is a huge way that God could use young adults in his Church today.

10.  Context: I stumbled onto a guy named John Medina and his book entitled Brain Rules – 12 Principles for Surviving and Thriving at Work, Home and School. John is a developmental molecular biologist and research consultant (I have no clue what that actually means other than he’s a lot smarter than I am). He’s also an affiliate Professor of Bioengineering at the University of Washington School of Medicine. In his spare time, (the guy doesn’t really have any does he?), John is the Director of the Brain Center for Applied Learning Research at Seattle Pacific University. (Makes my brain ache just thinking about all of the above). Medina writes: “Researchers have shown that some regions of the adult brain stay as malleable as a baby’s brain, so we can grow new connections, strengthen existing connections, and even create new neurons, allowing all of us to be lifelong learners” (p.271). In You Lost Me, you suggest, the media perpetuates “the damaging misperception that older people do not have much of value to offer the younger generations, thereby increasing generational fragmentation in our cultural imagination” (emphasis is mine – p. 118). Question: How might we invigorate the truth of “lifelong learning” as a biblical principle that might serve to accelerate diminishing the destructive nature of this deception, within Christian communities?

The church is the one place on earth where the generations come together without any ulterior motives. Really, this is the picture of the Body of Christ — not just our giftedness, but our intergenerational potential.

Being intergenerational is hard work. It takes intentionality. Being a good basketball player helps if you’re tall and can jump, but it also takes will power and practice. The book includes a lot of practical intergenerational examples. But it takes leaders prioritizing the interdependence of generations and making it happen in their ministries. It’s not easy. But it certainly can be done through human intention and God’s blessing.

David, I realize this book was incredibly difficult to write…and is the culmination of years of work and sacrifice…and would not be possible without the collaboration, input and support of many, many others. Yet, the reality of biblical truth spoken so boldly – and its implications – (through You Lost Me) typically requires us to question what we think we know – and how we behave – both as individuals, organizations and social institutions. We would like to thank you for your display of courage…and pray…that minds, hearts and behavior shall be changed – for His glory.

Thank you!

Bill Dahl

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As I was reflecting on this idea recently, I thought of the line below from a 1973 episode of Sanford and Son. It’s an exchange between “entrepreneur” (a.k.a., junk dealer) Fred Sanford (played by Redd Foxx), and his bible-thumping, purse-slinging sister-in-law, Esther Anderson (played by Lawanda Page) that takes place when she comes to bail Fred out of jail.¹

Esther: Fred Sanford, I’m glad my sister didn’t live to see the stain you’ve bought on this family.

Fred: Esther, I didn’t put no stain on your family. Your family was stained when I met y’all… Every time a baby was born, they had that ugly stain on them. That’s right! That ugly stain! Even AJAX couldn’t do nothing for it.

It struck me that Fred’s sentiment, while somewhat irreverent, could be describing our annual preparations for Christmas. This time of year we get out our “AJAX” (whether literal or figurative) and “scrub and scrub” and try to get everything looking pristine and perfect for Christmas. But no matter how hard we try, we can’t attain the perfection we seek. By the end of the season we are exhausted in every way and we may very well have missed the whole point of the Holiday that bears Christ’s name.

As an example of the unattainable and unrealistic images of Christmas we have in our mind, think about the nativity scenes depicted on many Christmas Cards. They have an almost surreal quality to them, don’t they? Have you noticed the snow in some scenes? Did you ever stop and think about what’s wrong with this picture? How often does it snow in the Holy Land? I’d say, rarely, if ever. Yet somehow, we’ve projected the weather in Peoria onto Palestine!

But even if we succeed at suspending our disbelief concerning the weather, many other things seem “out of place” in these pictures. Mary and Joseph are usually positioned directly in the center of the image with the newborn Jesus looking serene and content. Have any of these artists ever actually been parent to a newborn?! The shepherds stand nearby looking remarkably well-dressed for men who have just come in from the fields where they were “tending their flocks by night.” The angel’s luminous presence hovers overhead and no one seems to give them a second thought. (Normally, when angels show up in the Bible, folk’s first response was one of sheer terror.) The three wise men approach the newborn baby in an orderly fashion, each offering their gifts. The presence of strangers intruding into the manger in the middle of the night doesn’t disturb the new parents just a little?! Even the animals seem well-groomed and well-behaved. Would cattle and sheep really lay down?

The nativity scene is a ubiquitous image of Christmas in our culture. It’s the Kodak moment, the perfect photo at the end of every church Christmas pageant with all the characters in the drama neatly arranged around the manger smiling. I enjoy that moment as much as the next person. But while it makes for a perfect photo on Christmas Eve, I would argue that it is only loosely based on reality. The circumstances surrounding Jesus’ actual birth were a whole lot messier and complex—anything but perfect. I think it’s important to keep that fact in mind as we go about our various Christmas traditions.

The fact is, we can “scrub” all we want, but we’ll never get the stains out of the Christmas story—nor, I would argue, should we.

Consider the historical² context of Jesus’ birth. By the first century AD, the Jewish people have been oppressed for centuries. It’s the only reality that they have ever known. Rome is the latest in a long line of world powers that have marginalized and exploited the Jews. Long have they waited for their Messiah—a great king who God promised would rise up and throw off the yoke of oppression once and for all. But God has been strangely silent for 400 years. After so many years with no fulfillment of the prophecy, many Jews have probably given up hope of things ever being different.

But then suddenly, quite unexpectedly, out on the fringe of the known world, God moves. A young Jewish girl and her fiancé are thrust into the epicenter of God’s story and human history. An angel brings them an incredible message. The young girl—Mary—is chosen for a remarkable privilege and responsibility; she will give birth to the Messiah. Imagine this young couple trying to comprehend this? Imagine all the questions and doubts they had? And yet there could be no denying one fact: Mary was pregnant! A baby was growing in her womb and would soon be born. Somehow, despite so many challenges to overcome, Mary and Joseph respond in faith and obedience and become the earthly parents of Jesus the Christ.

Although we sing: “All is calm; all is bright. Round yon virgin mother and child,” on Christmas Eve, I suspect the reality of the night “Christ the Savior was born” was anything but peaceful.

Mary was a teenager about to give birth to her first child after what had to have been a scandalous pregnancy for everyone involved. She and Joseph (who was probably a little older than Mary) have been on what must have seemed like a surreal journey the past nine months, culminating in a literal journey to Bethlehem just prior to Jesus’ birth. The grueling trip late in pregnancy was necessitated by the whim of Caesar Augustus in Rome, who decreed that, “all the world should be counted”. It’s hardly a convenient time for them to travel, but when the Emperor speaks, ordinary people like Mary and Joseph have no choice but to respond. The couple returns to Joseph’s ancestral home in Bethlehem. They aren’t alone on their journey and when they arrive the city is crowded, and it’s nearly impossible to find lodging. And so it comes to pass that Jesus is born in a “manger” in Bethlehem.

Historians now think that the manger may not have been a barn as we might think of today, but more like a cave. Maybe Joseph’s family owned it³? In any case, it would have been a place where there was minimal shelter from the elements and a place where animals would have been—and all the things animals bring with them. Think about what animals tend to do in their bedding. You can cover it with a layer of fresh hay, you can “scrub and scrub,” but you will never totally remove those stains—and that says nothing of the smell.

So as we sing about, “the little Lord Jesus asleep on the hay,” we should keep in mind that it was most likely stained hay that Mary laid her newborn son upon.

Even by first century standards, a manger was far from the ideal place to bring a new baby into the world—much less the Son of God. And yet, when God decides it is time to come and be with us in the flesh, this is precisely where he chooses to make his entrance. God could have chosen anywhere in the world, but God chose a manger.

Likewise the “resumé” for the Mother of God seems a little questionable if not downright scandalous—a Jewish girl from a virtually unknown village, a teenager, an unwed mother, a virgin. God could have chosen any person on the planet, and for some reason God chose Mary. Couldn’t God set up a better scenario than this for the birth of his Son?

What if the whole point God is trying to make in doing it way it happened is that things don’t have to be perfect for them to turn out very good? What if the presence of a few stains in our lives or our dwelling places doesn’t bother God nearly as much as they bother us?

Notice that when God came to Mary, he didn’t say: “Now, Mary, I’m considering choosing you to give birth to my Son, but before I can implant Jesus in your womb, you’ll need to work on the following character flaws… I’ll come back in a year and see if you’re worthy of being the Mother of God”.

No, God sees what Mary is capable of becoming—perhaps precisely because of the adversity and hardship she will have to face and overcome during this pregnancy and beyond. Mary says, “Yes,” to God’s initiative and embarks on a risky journey with God and God uses her to give birth to a miracle. God knows that Mary is not perfect… but God also sees that Mary has a good heart, and this makes her ideally suited to the task of bearing Immanuel.

Mary didn’t have to “scrub and scrub” in some vein pursuit of perfection—really an unattainable state—before God could use her. All she had to do is be open and willing to be part of what God was doing right now.

It’s been said: The perfect is the enemy of the good; I think it’s true. If we get caught up in trying to make something perfect we might very well miss out on something that has the potential to be good. For example, we can become consumed with trying to have a perfect Christmas and fail to appreciate what is so good about the Christmas story.

If we try too hard to scrub Christmas clean, we might end up scrubbing Christ out of the holiday that bears his name.

There is an old hymn called There is a Fountain Filled With Blood whose chorus says: “sinners plunged beneath that flood lose all their guilty stains”. This line of theological thinking maintains Jesus’ blood does what no amount of our own scrubbing can do. Because of what Jesus did on the cross—and only because of that—we are now cleansed of our stains and made perfect before God.

But I’m not sure I believe that exactly. I’ve been a follower of Christ my whole life (41 years) and there are some stains that are just as stubborn as ever! I think perhaps reality is actually closer to Fred Sanford’s “theology”: “You can scrub and scrub but even AJAX won’t get rid of those stains.” That is to say, I think maybe we’re meant to keep some of our stains for eternity. (If that sounds strange, consider that Jesus, after the resurrection, still bore the marks of the nails that held him to the cross. Why weren’t those wounds healed?)

What if the blood of Jesus doesn’t remove our guilty stains altogether, but rather redeems them? What if the real Christmas story—not the sanitized nativity scene version—is meant to remind us that stains are an inescapable part of life on Earth—and that’s actually a good thing. What if stains are actually the flipside of giftedness⁴? What if the only way we can become all that God created us to be is to fully accept and embrace our stains?

No, you and I aren’t perfect people, and we never will be; but the good news we celebrate at Christmas is that by God’s grace, we are good people! We are fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of our Creator and there is much good God can accomplish through us if we will simply follow Mary’s example and say, “Yes,” to God’s initiative in our lives. If we open ourselves, God can use us—stains and all—to “birth” our own unique Christmas miracle just like he did with Mary.

———–

1^ For those unfamiliar, this URL gives some context: www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sccCzX8twg&feature=related.

2^ There are some (e.g., Marcus Borg) who question whether the birth narrative stories contained in the first two chapters of Matthew and Luke should be viewed as history. They suggest we should view these stories more like parables. For purposes of this article, however, I am viewing the birth stories as history.

3^ Thanks to Adam Hamilton for this insight. See The Journey: Walking the Road to Bethlehem, Chapter 4.

4^ Thanks to Parker Palmer for this idea—see Let Your Life Speak

Alan Ward lives in Baltimore, MD and his writing can be found at Alan’s Corner.

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George Barna

George Barna is a native New Yorker. He has filled executive roles in politics, marketing, advertising, media, research and ministry. He founded the Barna Research Group (now The Barna Group) in 1984 and helped it become the nation’s leading marketing research firm focused on the intersection of faith and culture. The company has served several hundred parachurch ministries and thousands of Christian churches throughout the country. It has also supplied research to numerous corporations and non-profit organizations, as well as to the U.S. Navy and U.S. Army.

To date, Barna has written 48 books, mostly addressing leadership, trends, church health and spiritual development. They include best-sellers such as Revolution, Transforming Children into Spiritual Champions, The Frog in the Kettle, and The Power of Vision. His most recent book is Revolutionary Parenting. Several of his books have received national awards. He has had more than 100 articles published in periodicals and writes a bi-weekly research report (The Barna Update) accessed by more than a million people each year, through his firm’s website (www.barna.org). His work is frequently cited as an authoritative source by the media. He has been hailed as “the most quoted person in the Christian Church today” and has been named by various media as one of the nation’s most influential Christian leaders.

He is a popular speaker at ministry conferences around the world and has taught at Pepperdine and Biola Universities and several seminaries. Barna served as a pastor of a large, multi-ethnic church and has been involved in several church start-ups.

After graduating summa cum laude from Boston College, Barna earned two Master’s degrees from Rutgers University. At Rutgers, he was awarded the Eagleton Fellowship. He also received a doctorate from Dallas Baptist University. He lives with his wife (Nancy) and their three daughters (Samantha, Corban, Christine) in southern California. He enjoys reading novels, watching movies, playing guitar, and relaxing on the beach.

Barna’s most recent book is FUTURECAST: What Today’s Trends Mean For Tomorrow’s World

Here’s the interview:

1. How are you and your family? Any major strategic initiatives on the horizon for 2012 in your professional life?

A: Life is good, God is better. Like many families, we have our ups and downs. Our children all have health issues, so that produces various forms of stress and hardship but we do our best to work and pray through that. If nothing else, those challenges keep us looking to God for strength and wisdom – which is an underappreciated gift in itself! Generally, though, we’re fine. When you have the opportunity to travel to countries where people are challenged in so many ways, where they lack the opportunities and blessings we take for granted, it puts things into perspective. We can whine about the high cost of health care and other daily challenges, but we are blessed to live in a country where great medical care, among other things, is available.

As for strategic initiatives, this year we launched the Maximum Faith Project, which focuses on my research concerning how God transforms people’s lives. I think it’s perhaps the most significant research I’ve ever done. 2012 will entail more emphasis on getting that information in people’s hands to facilitate more people experiencing all that God has in mind for them.

2. “Changing one life at a time” is a theme of your book. Yet, mass-production of disciples seems to be the dominant model in North America. How do leaders facilitate this change in their respective community of believers?

A: In some ways the mass-production model is another reflection of the American Church accommodating the culture. Americans are fed – and blindly accept – the notion that success is based on bigger, better, faster. I think a more biblical understanding of success is about deeper, simpler, truer. So perhaps the shift in our disciple-making strategy needs to start with how we define success. In a church setting, success is not about higher attendance, bigger budgets, expanded programs, hiring additional staff, or building out more square footage. Jesus didn’t die for any of those things. He died for us to invite Him to completely transform our lives, moving from sinners infatuated with the ways of the world to forgiven followers of Christ who live only to honor and obey God and pursue His agenda.

Metrics are a critical part of this discussion. Most churches measure some outcomes, but often they are irrelevant outcomes. What we measure is important because you get what you measure. If you measure attendance you’re going to focus on becoming a megachurch. If you focus on budget, you’ll emphasize tithing and budgeting. If you measure program availability, you’ll be focused on the breadth of offerings, sufficient staffing, adequate attendance in each program, and the like. We won’t actually begin to approximate the biblical Church until we begin measuring indicators of transformation. The best way to do that is to evaluate the increase in the fruit emanating from people’s lives.

The central message from Maximum Faith addresses this challenge. That research shows that there is a ten-stop journey God moves through with us. The purpose of the journey is to enable us to become lovers of God and other people. Life, in that sense, is all about our relationships. So how do we change the current programmatic emphasis in churches? Redefine success and facilitate behavior and experiences around what’s important. We have to place less emphasis upon irrelevant measures and instead focus on the things that represent irrefutable evidence that God is at work in a person’s life. To get there we need to focus on coaching individuals in how to grow from one stop on the journey to the next, rather than simply winning the attendance award and graduating from another program. The bottom line is about who we are becoming rather than what we have achieved or what we know. The goal is holiness, Christ-likeness, wholeness – not churchliness or wall-to-wall religious activity.

3. In the early part of the book Futurecast, you speak about the new degree of uncertainty and the deterioration in hope and optimism (in the U.S.) – These conditions typically cause human beings to go into survival mode…the foxhole posture – vs. embracing new forms of behavior that focus on the needs of others (“your desire and ability to bless people” p.25). “The inconsistency between how people see themselves and how they behave” p.12) has become more pronounced. What can leaders do to make people aware of this “disconnect” and initiate change to bridge the gap?

A: Our behaviors reflect our beliefs. Four out of five adults call themselves as Christian, yet less than one out of five identify first and foremost as Christian in their mind and heart. Two out of three adults claim to be spiritual, yet barely one out of ten says their faith is the most important component in their life. For the millions of Americans for whom being a Christian is a statement of religious preference rather than the essence of their identity, despair and pessimism is a reasonable perspective. In that frame of mind, this world matters more than anything, and their own performance on this planet is of paramount importance to shaping their identity, their well-being, and their hope. A devoted follower of Jesus, however, lives for His purposes and sees this life within a bigger frame of reference. Such an individual understands the imperfections of this world and our lives, and instead places their hope in the eternal future with God.

Leaders have the opportunity to help people shift their life emphasis from accomplishments in this life to investments in the life that will occur after they die. This speaks to how individuals define purpose and success in life. Most Americans, including born again individuals, do not possess a biblical worldview so they behave in ways that suggest what we experience here on earth is the sum total of reality, with a helping of fire insurance thrown in for safety. Helping people to adjust their frame of reference is critical.

Developing a biblical worldview is more critical now than it has been at any time since we’ve been alive. With secular perspectives becoming more pervasive, even within the church body, making such a worldview practical and integrated into the fabric of their being is crucial. That requires a substantial change in how most families, schools, churches and Christian organizations teach people and help them remain accountable for the things they say they believe. It’s also vital that we do this more effectively among children, since that’s when our worldview forms and it’s difficult to change after it has been formed and embraced.

4. Much of the research you cite involves the issue of the “belief in opposites.” It appeared to me that this is the source of where the “hypocrisy” label hung on Christians comes from? Can you elaborate?

A: A lot of the confusion I describe in Futurecast is not so much new as it is now more widespread and touches a broader range of life dimensions. Examples of the confusion and resulting contradictions abound. For instance, people maintain that marriage is important yet they have become accepting of cohabitation and divorce. Most Americans claim they are deeply concerned about the moral decline in the US, yet their own moral values are slipping. People bemoan the loss of the common good yet they pursue personal advantage and benefit whenever possible. Born again Christians say that they have been saved by Jesus yet a large percentage also says there are ways to eternal salvation apart from Jesus. Tens of millions of adults still pursue knowledge but only trust experience. It is increasingly common for people to demand respect, yet they act with incivility toward others. People extol the virtues of tolerance, but harbor islands of intolerance in their life. Most adults emphasize the importance of good parenting but treat their opportunity to invest consistently in their children as a secondary responsibility. You get the drift.

So, yes, some of this may be the source of people calling Christians hypocrites, but really it’s a problem endemic to almost every segment of our population. I don’t think we can attribute this deficiency to any single factor. It occurs in response to a number of cultural and personal transitions, such as the dismissal of moral absolutes, the demise of trust in leaders, people’s unwillingness to live within moral and civil boundaries, and the acceptance of religious pluralism. People in America are distracted by countless options and overwhelmed by information, resulting in nonsensical, individualistic responses to the circumstances they face. Without the moral standards that have traditionally been in place, everything is up for grabs.

5. You have, for many years, used certain measurement devices to evaluate the degree, and typology of a “Christian” in North America/U.S. These measurements have been fully disclosed by you and typically are associated with the definition of what has been heretofore referred to a “biblical worldview.” I have a question related to this. On page 124 you write: “There must be a connection between claiming the name of Jesus Christ and one’s lifestyle and choices.” One thing I see missing in today’s social research measuring tools as applied to the area of Christian faith, are tools that measure one’s transformation – from the standpoint of the individual respondent – as well as – from someone else (a spouse, friend, co-worker, neighbor etc). The measurements would be unequivocally biblical…an increase in the last year in your ability to love, to forgive, to tolerate, to behave compassionately, to invest your time in the care of elders, the sick or the disadvantaged etc. Can you comment on your perception of the value of these types of measurements? Is it possible to measure a biblical worldview through new measurements of a biblical lifestyle?

A: I think what such measurements would reflect is more than possession of a biblical worldview, and more so one’s progress in the process of transformation. I agree that we need a completely different set of metrics. If you study what Jesus examined in His interactions with people, He showed less interest in their beliefs than their behavior. Why? Because behavior is the proof of what you believe. Satan may say one thing but his actions demonstrate what he really believes in right or significant. Satan knows the right answers but behaves in contrast to what he often leads people to believe. He may whisper particular lies to us but his actions give him away.

It’s the same with us. Your worldview is important because you do what you believe. Your behavior, not your statement of faith, is what gives you away. And that’s why Jesus said He wanted to see the fruit.

So as I look at how things are evaluated in churches and individual lives, I think the measures we tend to rely upon reflect what we think of as success or significance in this life. Churches emphasize attendance, money, programs, staffing, and square footage. Jesus didn’t die for any of those. As individuals we tend to measure physical comfort, interpersonal acceptance, financial security, happiness, stellar health, and image. Jesus didn’t die for any of that, either. The problem is that you get what you measure. That being the case, it’s no wonder America is infatuated with megachurches, big homes, popularity, and the like. Those kinds of outcomes simply reflect what we contend is important.

Through the Maximum Faith research I realized that at each stop of the transformational journey, you are a noticeably different person than you were at prior stops. The only way to know, though, is by the fruit you produce. I have been encouraging people to pay attention to what they produce because you cannot produce stop 7 fruit if you’re currently living at stop 3. You cannot produce stop 9 fruit if you’re still at stop 2. The fruit you produce relates closely to how much you have cooperated with God in allowing Him to transform you.

So I think the kinds of measures that examine beliefs and knowledge are helpful insofar as they help us understand what underlies behavior. Religious knowledge for the sake of knowledge is rather meaningless, perhaps even counterproductive.

6. You make the statement (p.183): “Loyalty as a cultural value has seen its best days come and go.” Wow! What are the implications of that observation as it relates to creating and maintaining a life dedicated to Jesus Christ as one’s Lord and Savior?

A: In some ways, the product of that reality upon our spiritual condition is already visible. People no longer believe it is necessary to belong to a church or group of believers for an extended period of time. Denominationalism is dead. Families are being divided and reformed with regularity. People feel comfortable with the notion that there are multiple gods. A majority contends that all of the major faiths teach the same basic principles.

A true relationship with Jesus Christ demands that you make a permanent and singular commitment that will not waver or change based on circumstances or emotions. When people live in a culture that celebrates freedom, independence, change, experimentation, randomness, and emotions rather than commitment, responsibility, stability, consistency, and logic, it is almost inevitable that their inclination would be to view all relationships as utilitarian, maintaining them only as long as they feel they are getting sufficient benefit and having to expend minimal energy and resources to keep it going. That’s not how a relationship with the God of all creation works.

Having said all of that it’s important to recognize that there is a bit of a counterbalance that provides a ray of hope. America’s ongoing love affair with postmodern thought and behavior does place a greater emphasis upon experiences and relationships, so while people are less likely to buckle down and really study the scriptures or church history, they are at least more open to the notion of developing a relationship with the living God, and having an array of encounters and shared moments with God.

7. Can you elaborate on what your research shows about the rise in the American consumption of media (in ALL its forms) and the ability of one to “read” books or “study” material — or pray regularly/extensively – that is a critical component of “lifelong learning” — and a fundamental element of growing in Christ?

A: We are an entertainment-obsessed, distraction-loving, attention-challenged nation. We read an average of one-third of any book we start before discarding it in favor of some new option that has caught our ear or eye. The media have now trained us to “analyze” reality on the basis of sound bites and video clips. Instead of examining pages of newsprint or magazines, we now examine 140 characters on a mobile phone screen. USA Today was chastised as journalism lite when it began; today it is the norm. Newspapers are going under in favor of simpler, quicker, easier sources of information. News is what the Kardashians had for dinner. Amazingly, the content drawn from talk radio exchanges and from the late-night talk show monologues have become the primary news sources for millions of people.

All of this has resulted in a growing tendency for people to feel adequately versed in a topic once they grasp a few themes or dominant concepts. Memorization is looked down upon in society as a simplistic, empty-headed learning tool. Students often believe that the object of studying a subject is simply to pass a test or write a paper. The idea of “learning” is being redefined.

On the other hand, educational institutions that are tracking with these changes are discovering that it is possible for peoples’ interest to be sparked and maintained if the new learning tools can be properly used. I don’t think we’re entering an era in which people will be heavily inclined to use traditional study guides or attention traditional classroom-style learning options. However, Americans remain a somewhat inquisitive bunch, so if we can harness some of the new tools and use them responsibly, it is reasonable to expect that the current state of biblical illiteracy may not get worse. Will we rapidly transition to identifying and intelligently using the new tools of the trade? That remains a big “if.”

8. What are the two most troubling trends you are most concerned with, as identified in Futurecast?

A: People’s disinterest in and failure to diligently pursue transformation on God’s terms. The rejection and abandonment of absolute moral and spiritual truth.

9. It seemed to me that your two most recent books, Futurecast and Maximum Faith – play off of one another…that perhaps Maximum Faith is a response to the realities revealed in Futurecast. Can you comment on this?

A: I do think they help interpret each other. Futurecast provides the cultural context for why understanding God’s transformation process described in Maximum Faith is so critical – and why so few people are willing to go through the fullness of that process. On their face, the books seem very dissimilar, but there is a useful interplay between them.

In the past I’ve often heard people complain that my presentations about current trends caused them to feel discouraged – that the data presented were too pessimistic. My typical response is that accurate trend data is neither optimistic nor pessimistic; they are realistic, and it is your response to those realities that provides a sense or hope or despair. I think Futurecast fits snuggly within that framework. The book contains some harsh and startling views on the present and future. But what makes those views hopeful or hopeless is the nature of your trust in God, your commitment to changing those conditions, and the depth of your belief that God can do miraculous and mighty things through you and others.

At the same time, I think the portrait of society painted in Futurecast is made more bearable by the process of transformation described in Maximum Faith, which reminds us that we start changing the world by cooperating with God in His transformation of us, first. Knowing the nature of the journey, what the stops along the way require, and what to look for as evidence that God is at work in our lives and that we are working effectively with Him, provides enormous help and hope. It starts by understanding that you are not responsible for changing everything of dubious value or character that’s described in Futurecast; you only have to get your life right with God and give Him total access to your mind, heart, body, and spirit. When you do so, then He is able to affect the world through you, one life at a time, as He chooses, on His schedule and utilizing His resources. And suddenly things are no longer overwhelming, there is great hope for the future, and perhaps even a sense of excitement and anticipation.

Thank you George. Our blessings to you and yours for 2012.

Bill Dahl and Reggie

Bill Dahl is a freelance writer and award winning photographer. He is the Author, Creator and Editor of The Porpoise Diving Life (dot com). He is a commentator on faith and culture in America. He is published in numerous professional publications, journals, magazines, e-zines, websites, newspapers and newsletters.

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Mohler tweeted “Dear Congressman Weiner: There is no effective ‘treatment’ for sin. Only atonement, found only in Jesus Christ.”

To which Rabbi Boteach responded:  ”I hear you, Rev. Mohler. But I seem to recall many sexual scandals involving evangelical ministers that would seem to undermine the premise that salvation through Jesus Christ grants immunity to sexual sin.”

Say what now?

Does the Rabbi really mean to suggest that Mohler was offering an “immunity to sexual sin”??

He goes on to take Mohler to task for “proselytizing” via tweet and to lay out an interesting theory of redemption, namely- atonement and redemption are a product of what we do, and are impacted not in the least by our “faith.”

Respectfully…

Proselytize? Please- a shout out on twitter hardly counts as that- amidst all the cat calls, condemnation and kerfuffle, and it’s Mohler, trying to speak what he sees as the bottom line for the man’s soul that gets everyone’s knickers in a twist? (Read the comments that follow the article- knicker are truly twisted good. Lots and lots of atheist and agnostic wedgies, in fact.)

Maybe it’s the fact that Weiner is Jewish and Mohler a Christian? That’s an interesting form of reverse religious bigotry… to say that a Christian can’t recommend the only lifeline he knows and trusts to anyone who’s *not* already of the same faith. This has truly become the post-modern unforgiveable sin: To offer what you believe is true to someone who doesn’t already agree with you.

To the Rabbi’s points, though-

1. He says: “I seem to recall many sexual scandals involving evangelical ministers that would seem to undermine the premise that salvation through Jesus Christ grants immunity to sexual sin.” A complete straw man- who ever said faith in Jesus brings immunity to sexual sin??? Not me. In 40+ years  of Christianity, Bible College, and Seminary I’ve never heard a *single* suggestion that it would. Forgiveness and moral/ethical maturity are separate (though related) matters. David’s Judaism didn’t save him from temptation and sin with Bathsheeba, and no one’s faith in Jesus gives anyone a free pass from temptation.

2. More to the point- Mohler wasn’t suggesting a way Weiner could gain immunity- rather, a path to redemption, and relationship with God. *It’s okay if you disagree with Mohler’s idea about that path*- please just understand what he was and wasn’t saying- disagree, but at least show you are disagreeing with what he said and not your misunderstanding of it.

3. You are free to believe that “Redemption comes about not through anything we believe but how we behave” and “Redemption is never a function of belief and always a function of deed. ” but this is NOT the core message of the faith that Mohler and I  happen to share- and quoting Jesus in that context doesn’t mean He believed it either. Jesus’ point is that you know the kind of “tree” you are dealing with by the results of its life- in other words, an apple tree produces apples BECAUSE it is an apple tree, not the other way around. A tree does not BECOME an orange tree or an apple tree by producing either oranges or apples. Jesus is in that passage giving a test by which you can know the reality of someone’s relationship with God, not a means by which one can come into that relationship (ie thru good works/”fruit”).

4. The idea that our redemption and entrance into relationship with God is based not on what we do but on what Jesus did is the core essence of the Good News of Christianity- and good news it is. If my redemption were based on how well I toed the moral line, if my good works outweighed my bad- I’d be in a world of hurt, and so, I suspect, would most of those reading this.

5. I appreciate Rabbi Boteach quoting Jesus- but I think the conversation in John 6 would be more relevant on the issue of what God is really looking for from us: “They replied, “We want to perform God’s works, too. What should we do?”

Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.” (speaking of Himself)

6. The idea of belief bringing redemption isn’t a Christian one though- I’m surprised to hear the Rabbi talk as he has here. It makes me wonder about the last time he read Genesis 15:6: “And Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD counted him as righteous because of his faith.”

—

Bob Hyatt is a contributing editor for Next-Wave and is the leader of Evergreen Community in Portland, Oregon.

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“It’s not Augustine Aquinas,” I gently if exasperatedly correct them. “It’s Arminius of Abelard.” Then I snag one of their onion rings.

But the point is that I do have an answer to the question of whether or not hell is real. And here it is:

Asking whether or not hell is real is like asking your teammates in a football huddle during a game whether or not they think it’s possible, from your guys’ current position on the field, to sink a three-point basket.

Wrong question.

Wrong game.

Missing the point.

Here’s something I hate: conversations that ostensibly are about answering a question to which, in fact, there is no knowable answer. Getting stuck in a conversation like that transmogrifies my medulla oblongata into a crack-snorting hamster on a wheel. I instantly become a crazed prisoner surreptitiously searching for a hole in the fence he can slip through and run.

So, to state something so obvious I should be embarrassed to type it: No one has any idea — none, zero, zilch, nada, void, total blank — what happens to anyone after they die.

Could be heaven awaiting. Could be hell. Could be a Dairy Queen; could be a dentist’s waiting room; could be a six-room ranch-style igloo; could be interplanetary pinochle tournament.

No. One. Knows. It’s. Not. Knowable.

And if at this moment you’re inclined to grab your Bible, stop yourself. It’s not in there. You can pretend the Bible tells you what happens to people after they die, but you wouldn’t be fooling even yourself. Paul enjoins us to give up childish things, and you can’t get more childish than pretending the Bible is a magical window that lets you see beyond life. It isn’t. It doesn’t. You can’t. Trying to use the Bible as proof of what happens after we die is like trying to use a telescope to row a canoe. Wrong instrument. Wrong purpose. Only results in you still haplessly floating about.

The only thing we know for sure about what happens to us after we die is that in this life we don’t, can’t, and won’t have any idea what happens to us after we die.

I believe God made and sustains this world. So for me the All-Time Great Question is: Why can’t we know what happens to us after we die?

Why did God set up this system, in this way? Why that colossal mystery?

What is God trying to tell us by so resolutely not telling us what happens to us after we die?

If while wandering around the inside of an art museum I come across a door that’s solidly locked shut, what do I do? Well, if I’m emotionally immature, I might wrestle with the door’s handle, or maybe fall to the floor and try to peer beneath it. I might throw a tantrum because I can’t get into that locked room. I might squat beside the door, fold my arms, and determinedly try to imagine everything inside the room. There are all kinds of ways I might waste my time outside that door.

But if mature, I will simply assume that those in charge of the museum know what they’re doing, and for whatever reason don’t want people going in that room. And that would be good enough for me. So I would turn away from the door, forget about the room, and go back out into the museum, where all that wonderful art was waiting to enlighten and inspire me.

I think locking the door between this life and whatever is on its other side is God’s way of telling us to get our butts back in the museum.

I think keeping the afterlife a complete mystery is God’s way of telling us to pay maximum attention to the life we have on this side of the door. That the ever-fluid now of our life is where the action is. As clearly as he possibly can, I think he’s telling us to with full and focused consciousness be in our lives. To love our lives. To believe in our lives. To trust that within every single moment of our lives is virtually everything that we could ever want to know.

When I wrote the founding document for ThruWay Christians, I made this its tenth tenet:

The question of whether or not hell is real is properly subsumed by the truth that a moment spent worrying if you’ll be with God in the afterlife is an opportunity missed to be with God in this life.

Or, as we have it in the teen version of that same document:

If you’re worried too much about the afterlife, you’re not worried enough about this life. Living a life of love means not having to worry about hell.

I refuse to pretend to take seriously the question of whether or not hell is real. I think entertaining the question of what happens in the afterlife is an insult to God and all that he has given us in this life. When we need to know, we’ll know.

Thanks to Ric Booth for responding to this post by snapping and sending me the photo that now illustrates it.

This is the second in a series John Shore did on hell. (The first was  What Francis Chan (And His Ilk) Get So Terribly Wrong About Hell.) The third post in this series is Give ‘Em Hell.)

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John is a popular blogger for The Huffington Post. He is writer/producer of “The Smith Family Chronicles” (whose Facebook page is here).

John’s book, “Penguins, Pain and the Whole Shebang,” is available as an autographed and inscribed hard copy directly from him, for $2.99 on Kindle, and for all e-readers (including Nook) via Smashwords. “Penguins” won the 2006 San Diego Book Award for Best Religion/Spirituality.

John gets an almost embarrassingly tingly feeling when people “Like” his Facebook page.

“Like” John’s Facebook fan page.

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No One Turns Down the Blessing

Last Sunday I got to feed Jesus. A bunch of my co-workers were having a party at my friend’s warehouse. We were BBQing Tri-Tip. We were eating chips and salsa. We were making sandwiches, beans and we had a little cole slaw. Someone got some cookies. We were getting ready to feed Jesus and we were having a lot of fun together.

One of the couples are the assistant managers at a senior low-income mobile home park. They told us that Jesus lived there. We thought, let’s take some tri-tip sandwiches and cookies and go there and feed Jesus. There wasn’t an elaborate plan and we didn’t have a big team. Just four of us. I hadn’t ever done this in quite this way but I was pretty excited.

As we got to the park our assistant manager guides went to their home. They have been warned that they could get in trouble if they feed Jesus. They did have this advice. Start with space 155, they need what you have.

And so we were walking down the street almost to its end. I was asking the Holy Spirit, “How do we do this?” The reply: Go to the first door and knock. From years of sales training I had learned that when you are a stranger knocking on the front door, it is important to step way back after you knock. Don’t knock in a timid way. Give the door a good rap! And so I did. “Hello,” I said, “Anybody home?” No answer. And so I knocked again. My team waited patiently near the front of the mobile home, and then there he was: Jesus in the form of Yvonne.

“Hi, Yvonne, my name is Charlie and the Boss sent me with a gift for you.” She had a smile on her face and looked at me quizzically. “The boss?” she replied. The Team answered for me, “God sent us.” “I have the best tri-tip sandwich in the Central Coast, prepared by the famous chef, Roberto Ostini, how many sandwiches would you like?” “We have four people here.” Okay, here you go, and here are some cookies.

So far, this was going pretty well, I thought. And then a flash of inspiration: “May I bless you?” I took her hand and prayed: “In the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, I bless you. May the peace of God be on this house in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.” A big smile was on Yvonne’s face and so we moved to the next house.

House after house person after person we gave away BBQ sandwiches and cookies and the blessings. We were invited into a home to pray for a woman who had surgery on her back a couple of days before. I prayed for her healing. Tears filled her eyes. She said thank you. Blessing upon blessing was given. Smile after smile as we fed Jesus.

It came to me then. If we only had a minister we could come back next week and invite people to join us for a sandwich. We could read from the Boss’ manual, maybe our co-worker Paul’s first letter to Corinth, chapter 13. The one about love. We could share some bread and remember what Jesus did for us in his life and on the cross.

When we left, we left the blessing. We had spread the love of Christ with Tri-Tip. I was happy.

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Charlie Wear is the publisher of Next-Wave. He and his wife Loretta and son Benjamin live in Moreno Valley, CA. He recently published his first work on Amazon Kindle, simple church planting: No One Turns Down the Blessing.

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Charlie, Porpoise Diving!

Today I am honoring my friend, Bill Dahl, by wearing my Porpoise Diving Life Hat. The Kindle version of that work was recently published and I couldn’t be happier. Bill is one of my fellow followers of Jesus, a minister of the gospel and he and his wife Jackie are my brother and sister. I pray you will check out the e-book and be blessed as I have been by reading it…

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McLaren, Brian Naked Spirituality – A Life With God in 12 Simple Words HarperOne – an imprint of HarperCollins Publishers New York, NY. Copyright © 2011 by Brian D. McLaren.

By Bill Dahl

Beyond Beautiful – or – It’s Wednesday – But Sunday’s A Comin’

Theologian Stanley Hauerwas has said, “Theology is not best understood as a system — narrative might have something to do with theology.”[i] Narrative is fine Stanley – but I’d like some tools that have practical application to my life, and those around me, as a person of faith. I’d also like some boots on the ground authenticity from the real life experiences of a fellow sojourner.

Enter Brian McLaren – Naked Spirituality – A Life With God in 12 Simple Words. Here’s the honest truth about the impact this book had on my life:

I had just finished Chapter 20 “Why – When You Have Come to Zero.” My wife arrived home from work. She began to prepare dinner and I wandered into the kitchen to catch up together on the day’s events – an uneventful Wednesday.

As we stood there chatting, the phone rang. It was our daughter Liz calling from her home in Utah. Liz and her fiancée Aaron had buried Aaron’s mother on Monday – just two days ago. They had just received a phone call – Aaron’s father had been killed in a car crash.

We concluded the tearful call with our daughter. I went into another room and sat silently – questions, remorse, sorrow, anger, dismay, confusion – ricocheting throughout my being. We ate half our dinner and adjourned to a couch. Jacki looked at me – sorrow and befuddled are two words that were embossed on her facial expression. We were both at zero – in shock – wounded – naked and fully exposed to the unconscionable in life. I leaned forward, grabbed my reading glasses and Brian’s book. I turned to the first page of Chapter 20 and read the chapter aloud to my wife.

I looked up and closed the book. “Beautiful?” I remarked, gazing at my wife. – “Beyond Beautiful,” she replied – as restorative waves of soothing, healing truth rolled through our souls.

In Naked Spirituality – A Life With God in 12 Simple Words Brian McLaren gets real with God, with life, the seasons inherent within human existence – sharing his boots on the ground experience as a fellow sojourner. Another formulaic, step-by-step, overly simplistic, bogus promise-laden landmine from an over-caffeinated evangelical Christian? Not Hardly.

At this stage in life, I need to learn from the experience of others…others who live in my world…the real world – the world of faith that Brian McLaren lives in. I’m worn out on opinions, perspectives and narrative nonsense of people trying to sell books – suggesting that “if you do this, you’ll be fine.”

In this book, Brian shares his own personal life lessons that are raw, real and uncut. McLaren’s dance with language provides hues of color that I had overlooked in the life of. He provides vistas and vantage points where the reader can stand side-by-side with him gazing beyond what we are presently able to visualize. There’s no artificial ingredients in the flavors McLaren serves up.

Take a seat with Brian McLaren – at his table – The table of life with the living God. Enjoy the feast that Naked Spirituality provides – one course at a time. Savor the tender, succulent, mysterious seasonings contained in each course: Here, Thanks, O, Sorry, Help, Please, When, No, Why, Behold, Yes and Silence.

No, this is not another fast-food systematic theology or another bland narrative. For us, Naked Spirituality is a unique and nutritious innovation from Brian McLaren – as he continues to evolve his craft in delivering fare for the faithful. There’s one thing that separates Brian from the rest of the authors in faith and culture – he has eaten his own stuff before he allows anybody else to sample it in print. He readily identifies the faith dishes he has dined on, admits the tastes he has worn out, the spices that have turned out to be bland, the sinew of life he has choked on – the wards of people he has encountered, hospitalized after being poisoned with the fare of faith served up with a seal of God attached to it.

“Beautiful?” – “Yes – Beyond Beautiful.”

For us, this book was, and shall be, both a timely and enduring blessing. For us, it was It’s Wednesday – But Sunday’s a Comin’.

Forgive me Tony – Thank you Brian!

Please pray for our daughter Liz, son-in-law Aaron and their daughter Rebekka.

This book is precious – so is life – so is the privilege of relationship with the living God – here – today – in any and all circumstances – even when you’re at zero….or not.

NOTES

You can reach Bill Dahl at http://www.BillDahl.net or http://www.ThePorpoiseDivingLife.com

About The Reviewer – Bill Dahl

Bill Dahl is a creative thinker, freelance writer, and social observer/commentator. He is an ongoing contributor to the dialog in the faith and culture, economics and creative thinking arenas. He has been characterized as a gifted story teller.

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Well, it happened again. Honestly, I wasn’t even looking for it. These passages just seem to jump out at me and have a vibrancy that uniquely resonates with me. Truth be told, God seems to place a seemingly relentless burden on me – until I write about it.

So, here we go again. I pray this blesses you as it continues to bless me and mine. Here’s the passage:

Mark 3:1-6 (New International Version)

¹ Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. ² Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. ³ Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand “Stand up in front of everyone.”

⁴ Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

⁵ He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. ⁶ Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

1. The Shriveled Hand:

Let’s be honest, there’s not a life that doesn’t have a deformity. It need not be a physical handicap. When we enter any assembly of humanity, we are surrounded by comrades who have lives that include a shriveled hand – something we are not particularly proud of, maybe even ashamed of. It might be something we attempt to keep to ourselves – out of the view of others — something in our lives that needs to be healed.

In the passage above, it’s not likely that the man with the shriveled hand was walking about the synagogue displaying his hand for all to see. In fact, Jesus may not have even actually seen his shriveled hand. Yet, The Pharisees and Herodian’s knew of this man’s deformity. We assume the man with the shriveled hand was known by others to live with this malady – even though it is likely he attempted to keep it hidden from the view of others. Once again, what we attempt to keep hidden from those around us, is known by God.

Think about it…what’s your shriveled hand?

1. Stand Up In Front of Everyone:

Over the years, I have come to understand that Jesus has a tendency to call me out on my stuff. He’s just not content with any attempt on my part to keep my shriveled hand hidden from His view – or my rationalization that “I can handle it or I’ll get to it when I’m ready.” Nope – Jesus calls us out!

Imagine for a moment the reaction of the man with the shriveled hand when Jesus looks at him in the eye and declares: “Stand up in front of everyone.” I sincerely doubt that this man was giddy with glee. My guess, is that he was scared spitless. He was likely trembling. Jesus is bringing this man out of the safety of being submerged in the crowd – to stand alone – in front of everyone – removing the anonymity and obscurity that the crowd provides.

Each of us have wounds that need to be healed, fears and confusion that we allow to persist, deformities of the soul that require that we change our posture – and develop a willingness to “Stand up in front of everyone.”

Obviously, when we are called out by Jesus, just as this man was, we have a series of choices – comply, run for the exits, feign that “hey, are you talking to me?” – or look at the person standing next to us. It is a moment when we are called to come out from the masses – to face our God – with witnesses we would not have chosen if it was up to us. It’s uncomfortable.

1. But They Remained Silent:

Jesus has a tendency to ask questions that leaves many (yours truly included) – speechless, dumbfounded, or simply unwilling to respond. Although healing in the synagogue was lawful on the Sabbath if a person’s life was at risk – healing a shriveled hand did not meet those elements of the law.

Here’s the point: Jesus’ ministry was all about disassembling current customs, laws, norms and mores. Even when the answer to His question is obvious (“Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?”) – the majority remains silent.

We cannot look to those around us to supply the courage or moral support when Christ calls us out from the crowd to face Him. He may call us out in circumstances we find difficult to comprehend. These circumstances may be such that we are called out in circumstances that breach the mainstream norms and cultural mores of the moment.

Where in your life are you being called out from the crowd by Christ? Come on…don’t just read the sentence, pause for a few minutes and meditate upon that question. Are you being asked to “stand up in front of everyone,” – breach the current normative standards – perhaps even subject yourself to ridicule from the crowd?

Jesus’ relationship with each of us has little (if anything) to do with the crowd we tend to surround ourselves with or find ourselves among – He could care less about what they think of what He is asking of us. His timing is His timing – not ours. It’s typically inconvenient (just my personal experience with Jesus speaking here). As He says in the passage above, He gazed upon the crowd “in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts.” Jesus never cares much for silence in response to his questions – it’s as true for each of us as it is for the crowd in this passage.

1. Stretch Out Your Hand!:

Imagine Jesus, just after he has stared at the crowd around you in utter discouragement, He looks directly in your eyes and says, “Stretch out your hand.” Me? I’d probably pass out or start whimpering, or attempt to enter into a dialog to negotiate an action not quite as drastic as the one He is calling me to carry out (I’ve admittedly succumbed to the latter 2 of the 3 options in the previous sentence). The point is, we’re at another “choice moment.” Only you and Jesus know what parts of your life contain your shriveled hand. When asked to “Stretch out your hand ” during 2011 will you stretch out your left when your right hand is shriveled? Will you raise your right foot? What will your response be in 2011?

1. Summary – Stretch Out Your Hand! – A Meditation for 2011:

Lift both of your hands, palms up, before you. Gaze at your hands for a few minutes. Shrivel them up if you like. Do this regularly. “Stretch out your hands!”Contemplate the following:

Your hands have fingerprints uniquely associated with only you. Nobody before you or after you has had or will have the same designs placed on the end of each finger and thumb. You are uniquely and wonderfully made.

Each of us has dimensions of our being that Jesus yearns to restore – to heal. Our immersion in daily routines – family, school, work, etc. oftentimes provide the rationalization to just keep “going with the flow” – allow us to remain seemingly submerged within the crowd – obscuring the need to stretch out your hand and accept the invitation of Christ to continue to restore whatever challenges you have acquired or that life has thrust upon you. Your life cannot hide under any circumstance from the loving adoration of Christ — and His earnest, relentless desire to restore you, as He deems appropriate.

Is there a crowd, a set of behaviors, routines or priorities that are currently providing you with an illusion of cover from the watchful gaze of the One who adores you? The One who sees all and knows all. The One from whom there simply are no secrets, no shame too great, no fear too mighty, no sadness too deep, no predicament too complex — to be brought to Him with outstretched hands?

Perhaps you might be one who has shriveled hands – hands that have been unwittingly grasping the wounds, grievances, sadness, fears, and disappointments for so many years – that they have become shriveled in the process, unwilling to release the same to the restorative, healing power of the One who can do what you cannot.

Stretch Out Your Hand in 2011. If you can’t find the strength to do so yourself – ask Jesus to take your hand – or provide others who can provide the courage and strength you are currently unable to muster. Move toward Christ in 2011. Offer Him those matters in your life you have been hiding, restrained or ashamed to bring directly to Him.

Stretch Your Life Toward Jesus in 2011.

Keep me posted on the results!

Blessings to you and yours in 2011,

Bill Dahl

Author, Creator, Editor

http://www.ThePorpoiseDivingLife.com

Bill Dahl is a freelance writer from Redmond, Oregon. He blogs at http://www.BillDahl.net.

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© Mark Hryciw | Dreamstime.com

Ambushed by the glory of God and the announcement of the Messiah’s birth, and mesmerized by a choir of angel voices, the shepherds were surely amazed at the angelic message: “Glory to God in the Highest and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.”

The light had come into the world, conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin in humble circumstances and laid in a manger. When the shepherds heard the news of the birth, they couldn’t help themselves, they had to check it out. After seeing the child, they had no other choice but to tell everyone they saw. They came away glorifying and praising God! Wow! This was really something.

That baby grew up to bring this message: “Change your way of thinking, the kingdom of God has drawn near.” God had given humanity its greatest gift, his presence in human form. This is the real gift of Christmas, God has come to be “with us.”

I love to hear a choir burst into the chorus, “Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah,Hallelujah, Hallelujah, For the Lord God omnipotent reigneth..”Tradition has it that King George II rose to his feet at this point. As the first notes of the triumphant Hallelujah Chorus rang out, the king rose. Royal protocol has always demanded that whenever the monarch stands, so does everyone in the monarch’s presence. Thus, the entire audience and orchestra stood too, initiating a tradition that has lasted more than two centuries. It is lost to history the exact reason why the King stood at that point, but the most popular explanations include:

• As was and is the custom, one stands in the presence of royalty as a sign of respect. The Hallelujah chorus clearly places Christ as the King of Kings. In standing, King George II accepts that he too is subject to Lord of Lords.
• He was so moved by the performance that he rose to his feet.
• He arrived late to the performance, and the crowd rose when he finally made an appearance.
• His gout acted up at that precise moment and he rose to relieve the discomfort.
• After an hour of musical performance, he needed to stretch his legs. (Wikipedia, Messiah (Handel))

The chorus rings with the words proclaiming that an all-powerful God is King of the universe. And yet, the word of God was laid in a humble manger where he was first worshiped by shepherds. Philippians 2 tells us:

…[Christ] had equal status with God but didn’t think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what. Not at all. When the time came, he set aside the privileges of deity and took on the status of a slave, became human! Having become human, he stayed human. It was an incredibly humbling process. He didn’t claim special privileges. Instead, he lived a selfless, obedient life and then died a selfless, obedient death—and the worst kind of death at that—a crucifixion. Because of that obedience, God lifted him high and honored him far beyond anyone or anything, ever, so that all created beings in heaven and on earth—even those long ago dead and buried—will bow in worship before this Jesus Christ, and call out in praise that he is the Master of all, to the glorious honor of God the Father. [The Message]

Great love was the reason for God’s gift to mankind. The world was in need of saving. Only God’s love could do the saving. On Christmas morning (or Christmas eve) as you and the children in your lives are opening gifts try to remember that God’s gift is the reason we celebrate the birth of Jesus. And as you imagine that baby lying in the manger, let your heart sing the words, “Hallelujah! Hallelujah!”

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