The Celebrity Church Must Die
By Bob Hyatt |
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I've said it before and I will, no doubt, say it again... The Celebrity Church must die. Here's exhibit, oh... #3,465 
"TAMPA - Randy and Paula White, the founders and co-pastors of what has been one of the nation's biggest and fastest-growing churches, plan to divorce. ... They blame two lives going in different directions... Randy will stay at Without Walls as senior pastor while Paula concentrates on her ministry, which includes a TV show broadcast on several national networks including Black Entertainment Television, conferences, and book and video sales. She'll remain based in Tampa, with satellite operations in California, New York City and San Antonio. Church attendance "will take a hit" from the news, Randy predicted. Without Walls reports having 23,000 members. Its finances also will be affected: Paula's ministry brings in about $50,000 to $80,000 a week, he said. An audit put total church revenues at nearly $40 million last year. ... Paula, 41, is frequently on the road for her for-profit and nonprofit ventures. One of those, Paula White Enterprises, changed earlier this year when Randy's name was removed as a director, according to Department of State records. In February, she created a new nonprofit, PWM Lifecenter, listing as directors herself, church CFO Norva Carrington, and Rick Hawkins, founding pastor of the Family Praise Center in San Antonio, Texas. She has made many speaking trips recently to San Antonio and this month purchased a $681,000 home there. She serves as "oversight pastor" to Hawkins' son Dustin, who now leads the church. Paula also frequently travels to New York City, where she has a Trump Tower condo and leads monthly services at her new Life by Design Empowerment Center. Randy, 49, has spent several months commuting to Malibu, Calif., where he signed a one-year lease on a beachfront dwelling. He had told his congregation he planned to start another church there, but now says those plans are on hold. ... The Whites have declined to say what the church pays them. Michael Chitwood, whose financial services company devised their compensation package, said he recalled they have taken an annual salary as high as $1.5 million collectively, though most years it's closer to $600,000. They were approved to take up to $3 million collectively, said the president of Chitwood & Chitwood of Tennessee. Perhaps the most complex part of their divorce, being handled by Holland & Knight law firm, will be dividing up the assets, debts and business interests. The couple's home on Bayshore Boulevard has an assessed value of $2.22 million. They have a land trust that includes two Tampa houses with assessed values of $144,800 and $257,835. The New York condo is valued at about $3.5 million. Their multimillion-dollar ministry includes a private jet." There's too much there to even begin commenting on. But I will say this- we're getting the church we want here in America. These guys aren't stealing anything. We're giving them every cent. There's a certain percentage of us that want to be affiliated with a church whose pastors fly around on a private jet and become household names and live opulent life-styles. Not all of us, but enough to allow folks like the Whites (and literally hundreds of others) to live like Croesus. And even if some of our megachurch pastors live pretty normal middle-class lifestyles, there's still something crazily outsized about churches not just expanding to other neighborhoods via Video Venues, but actually to whole other states.
At a certain point, I think it's a sign of maturity for a church community to say "that's enough."
I'm not going to put a number on it, because that gets us into the whole mega church vs church planting debate and that's not (exactly) what this is about. But I will say, if you have no upper limit at all on what you can handle as a pastor, you're in trouble. And if you do have an upper limit, but it's in the same neighborhood as "Bono", you're still in trouble. Which is why, in some ways, Rob Bell is such a breath of fresh air.
(Say what?)  I know, I know... to some, he's kind of the epitome of the Celebrity Pastor, with his cool "tours" and Nooma vids and all...
But have you ever listened to his podcast? It kind of sucks... He explained this once, in one of those sucky podcasts- they put ZERO effort into production value. No musical lead-in or fade out. No silky-tongued announcer tickling your ears. The thing is recorded at about 20kb and often sounds like an AM radio in a lightening storm...
And why? Because Rob doesn't want you to think that by listening to him preach to his community, you've somehow accomplished something and can take a pass on participating in or learning from your own.
He knows he's a great speaker. But he also knows he's not your pastor. And he's not going to dress it up and make it fancy or even advertise it (for a couple years, it was pretty hard to even find MHBC messages. It came as a surprise to most people that they were podcasting) because he's simply not interested in being the number one podcast on iTunes (ahem...) and in tempting you to think that you might not have anything to learn from those in your own church community who have been called to teach (even if they're not quite as cool as Rob). And because he explicitly doesn't want you to think that he's your teacher or your pastor, he embodies that by making it so that if you really want to listen to him teach, you kind of have to work at it. I love that. It's humble in the best sense of knowing that yes, he's a captivating speaker, but no, he's not interested in taking away anything at all from you learning from your community. That tells me at a base level whose Kingdom Rob is really interested in building.
Books, big church, whatever... That kind of celebrity I can live with. The others? Well... I actually feel sorry for them. Their lifestyle costs all of us something... but I think ultimately it costs them the most.
 Bob Hyatt is the lead pastor of the the evergreen community, an emerging church community in Portland, OR. More importantly he is the husband of Amy and the father of Jack and Jane. He's also the editor of Next-Wave. |
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Wasn't Paul really well known amongst the Diaspora Jews in the first century? What about Peter? St. Augustine, Martin Luther, St Francis of Assisi, Jonathan Edwards, C.S. Lewis, Oswald Chambers, John McAuthor... I could go on.
I sometime get the feeling that the people who get labeled "celebrity pastor" in a negative sense are the ones that the 'labeler' disagrees with.
Wow, this dialog has been really interesting to read. I've sensed over the past couple years what Joe and some others have been saying (I'm a young pup so it's only been a couple years). The American/Modern (by which I mean the modern church, not the modern generation, as opposed to the post-modern generation) Church must re-form. This is not what Jesus had in mind for the Church. This Health & Wealth, consumerist, isolated "Christianity" is a huge misconception of the teachings of Jesus.
I think "celebrity" is sometimes useful (as in the case of Rob Bell, I think), but there must first be a Christ-centered objectivity to ministry. Unfortunately, there are many pastors and church leaders who have a self-centered approach -- either making themselves more financially stable, or teaching other people that the self (self help, self improvement) is the most important thing (rather than loving God first).
The church is in trouble, and it's in part because the church is glorifying its leaders rather than God. We're in a self-destructive mode.
you know, Jesus was well known and followed after by crowds. the thing is, he stayed the same whether the crowds were there or not.
leaders can't control who drives how far to attend their services. they can only control themselves. let's not be lumping all the well known people together as if they are all the same. there's good and bad in all areans of society.
when i heard about the whites, i looked closely at the photo that is featured in this article, and i saw pain. i didn't see that it was their fault, etc. etc. i saw pain like anyone lives through when divorcing. the different is, they have to go through this awful time with a lot of strangers watching.
we need to pray for them and give them grace. they are human just as we are.
Joe, I think more churches and church leaders need to really consider whether the way we do church is necessarily the best way to do it. I want to keep repeating that I really love Mars Hill. I am only trying to raise cautions about how the American church has been influenced by and embraced individualism, consumerism, and celebrity. You asked, Is it the church's fault? Well, yes, to the extent that a church allows or accommodates it, even if the church doesn't actually want it. Some people may drive 2-3 hours to attend a church they like. I wonder, though, what does that church have to do with your local community, your city, your neighborhood?
btw, I looked at your 235 list...awesome!
Actually, We have about 3000 members. 12000+ show up every week, but you're talking about a church that started by going verse by verse through Leviticus. That's not overly seeker friendly. Yes, people drive long distances, but is that the church's fault?
(the same kevin from 9/18) I agree with you that what is happening with a person internally is extremely important. From what I have learned and intuited about Rob, he was never looking for celebrity, and his heart really is for his local church and city.
But I'm still uncomfortable. The issue isn't Rob Bell, but the American church. We look for Christian celebrities. We celebrate the biggest, newest churches. Mars Hill has 10,000+ members. Yes, it's an awesome church. The building is very plain and unpretentious, and I appreciate that. But 10,000 members? It's an easy place to go to and be anonymous. I live in the area, and I know that people will drive long distances every Sunday just to attend. It seems that all that caters to the American consumer culture, and it's driven by the image and publicity of celebrity--even if not wanted or endorsed by the church or Bell himself.
Aye carumba...
Thanks guys- can we please all settle down- and can we please not post comments using the same name as another commenter? I'm assuming that last one (based on advanced textual criticism) was actually TJ?
Bob, I'm not really hurt...it is more like totally GRIEVED....I can not be the only one in America who thinks the church is sick....we're big time sinners but we won't admit it....Jesus came for the sick....so WHY won't we surrender to Him? Youth groups are not surrender to Him when they sit around and discuss movies intead of God's word....Pastors can be household names but the latest ones in the headlines have not had happy times associated with their names. WHY? The pulpits are just as spiritually bankrupt as those filling the chairs...can anyone see that our nation is collapsing and the church just has stupid comedy nights? I mean even after Ted Haggard FINALLY todl the truth and the church was rocked they went on with their "planned comedy night".....HUH? I'll say it again...HUH????????????? When Ester and the Jews were facing their demise they did not call anything less than a 3 day fast and crying out to God to save them.....H E L L O CHURCH IN AMERICA.....MAYBE WE SHOULD DO THE SAME !!!!!!! I mean our programs are not really working...even the pastors are a mess...how ABOUT SOME PRAYER....LIKE IN THE UPPER ROOM? HOW ABOUT SOME SACK CLOTH AND ASHES AND RERPENTENCE AND WAILING? ANYONE? CAN I GET A WITNESS or are you planning your next movie sermon from Ben Stiller's upcoiming flick?
No, they show them in other churches but I'm saying those are two different aspects. BTW, saying horse shit isn't a rise. Where I come from that's just normal for you don't know diddly, or whatever you want to put there, we just cut to the chase a little more. Part of growing up in the NE country. :)
"They don't get shown in our gatherings"
Right UK have to put up with them lol..
Nice phrasing though,love the language,the irony is i could say anything i wanted about Bell and your "brother" will be more pissed at ur language(btw i'm not one ;-)
Americans are so easy to get a rise out of rofl
With all due respect to AJ and TJ, you don't know horse shit and it shows in your logic. The NOOMA DVD's have nothing to do with our community (Yep, I go to Mars). They don't get shown in our gatherings. They are a separate entity completely. Rob sold his house in the suburbs, lives in the city in a normal house. Your representation of him is crap. He's a normal guy who happens to be a pretty gifted teacher. I don't agree with everything he teaches or does but to call him a sell out is rediculous. Just disgusting
Great interview with Bell in the Wittenburg Door here
excerpt: "BELL: The issue is not saving the poor—it's saving us. When Jesus uses the word hell, He does not use the word with people who are not believers or not believing the right things. It is a warning to religious people that they are in danger of hell because of their indifference to the suffering of the world. So the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not what heaven and hell are like. It's a parable to rich people warning them that their apathy has them in danger. Heaven and hell are present realities that extend into the future. For a lot of Americans, this is about the saving of their own soul. Recapturing God's heart for the world. Otherwise I will end up not caring and not passionate. At our church, people are desperate to understand this culture of excessive materialism. We were made to bless the world. The original call is that blessing was always instrumental. When that blessing gets misconstrued as favoritism you have a very toxic thing happening. Our people are desperate to give, hardwired for it. I assume that people are good and just need opportunities.
DOOR: Um, we're getting the impression we might not see you on TBN anytime soon.
BELL: Ha. I think that's one of the most warped ideas—that God just can't wait to bless you. God blesses you so you will bless the world and if at any point I keep that for myself, then I am in trouble.
DOOR: Speaking of trouble, the Church hasn't always been the safest place to be real. You've gotta be catching some heat ....
BELL: Hmm. I don't read reviews, but apparently there are some people out there who feel that God or Jesus is being threatened. I catch wind of things, some people are pretty cranked up but it's not something I spend any time on. You can't take people somewhere they don't want to go. For every fundamentalist you piss off there are probably five more who start listening. For a lot of people it's like, "Oh, we can talk about that? Well, now you've got my attention." You know the issue is whether or not it's true and whether or not it's compelling. Someone asked me the other day, "What's the demographic of your people?" I was like "I dunno—sinners?"
DOOR: Actually, your church is one of the hottest churches in America.
BELL: I don't even know what that means. I know there's a woman in the second row in the second service that has cancer for the third time. I know there's a single mom named Erin who needs a place to live. I know this guy who just got custody of his kids and he's trying to figure out how to be a single dad. So to me a Church is real people trying to figure it out. The word hottest isn't really a word I associate with a community of Christians. (laughs) For my wife and me it's very important that we live as close as possible to a normal life in our city. So words like hottest and up and coming are not reality and not a place to live. It's a dead end road. "
"certain ways in which he is actively working against the celebrity"
Thks for the laugh
Wow... text message comments. Thanks.
Sheesh...
You cant be serious about Rob Bell,i'm sorry hes Mr Celeb in the UK,hardly anyone i know,would have a clue who Paula White is (i admit my friends are young ish) ..
You said "he's not going to dress it up and make it fancy or even advertise it"
Maybe not the pod,but he done a damn good job with his dvd,there everywhere..
What Christan pastor as sold his image so well?? He comes across as relevant & politically appealing and soooo cool..LOL he still thinks he's in a rock band,well lets face it if you can charge for ur gigs why wouldn't you GENIUS !!
He as much a sell out as the people he rebelled against in the first place..Same old story i care i care i care hummm could u stand in line and i will sign ur book
$$$$$$ZZZZZ
my point about Bell is that I see certain things in his life, certain ways in which he is actively working against the celebrity- at least as regards his actual pastoring... And I appreciate that. The hard part with this is that I honestly believe much of the difference is internal- that is the one seeking celebrity and the one who has some measure of celebrity thrust upon him or her may LOOK very similar- but be world's apart inside- and in their overall impact on the church.
TJ- I'm sorry for the hurt you've endured. I can "hear" it in your comment. I pray God brings you the healing and peace you need...
You're onto something here and I say Amen.
But, I'm not sure about putting Rob Bell in a separate category. I think he's a powerful teacher and preacher. I've been to his church and I love it. And yes, I agree that he is very humble and certainly Christ-centered. But, he's the guy everyone's talking about. He goes on national speaking tours and sells tickets. He's definitely the IT guy right now among Christians who want to think they are progressive and cool. I really don't have anything at all against Bell, but if you're going to call for an end to celebrity Christianity, I think it's only honest to include him.
Rob Bell is just as much "celebrity church" as Randy and Paula..divorcing....Junaita Bynum/Bishop Weeks...divorcing....and wrestling out in a parking lot....Ted Haggard...gay boy...out and should not get BACK INTO a pulpit for a LONG LONG TIME.....or the pastor who married my husband and I ...(we'll keep his name silent)...child molester. My husband wonders WHY I want to keep my sons out of "kids ministry"? THE CHURCH IS SO SICK THE UNLOST COULD TEACH THEM BETTER.....no "teen ministry or church camp" for our sons...are you KIDDING ME? But the Lord told me to pray that the pulpits be purged.....sadly...my prayers are being answered and this is only the beginning...the HYPOCRITICAL CHURCH must die...starting with ALL PASTORS AND LEADERS>>...
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I sometime get the feeling that the people who get labeled "celebrity pastor" in a negative sense are the ones that the 'labeler' disagrees with.
I think "celebrity" is sometimes useful (as in the case of Rob Bell, I think), but there must first be a Christ-centered objectivity to ministry. Unfortunately, there are many pastors and church leaders who have a self-centered approach -- either making themselves more financially stable, or teaching other people that the self (self help, self improvement) is the most important thing (rather than loving God first).
The church is in trouble, and it's in part because the church is glorifying its leaders rather than God. We're in a self-destructive mode.
leaders can't control who drives how far to attend their services. they can only control themselves. let's not be lumping all the well known people together as if they are all the same. there's good and bad in all areans of society.
when i heard about the whites, i looked closely at the photo that is featured in this article, and i saw pain. i didn't see that it was their fault, etc. etc. i saw pain like anyone lives through when divorcing. the different is, they have to go through this awful time with a lot of strangers watching.
we need to pray for them and give them grace. they are human just as we are.
btw, I looked at your 235 list...awesome!
But I'm still uncomfortable. The issue isn't Rob Bell, but the American church. We look for Christian celebrities. We celebrate the biggest, newest churches. Mars Hill has 10,000+ members. Yes, it's an awesome church. The building is very plain and unpretentious, and I appreciate that. But 10,000 members? It's an easy place to go to and be anonymous. I live in the area, and I know that people will drive long distances every Sunday just to attend. It seems that all that caters to the American consumer culture, and it's driven by the image and publicity of celebrity--even if not wanted or endorsed by the church or Bell himself.
Thanks guys- can we please all settle down- and can we please not post comments using the same name as another commenter? I'm assuming that last one (based on advanced textual criticism) was actually TJ?
Right UK have to put up with them lol..
Nice phrasing though,love the language,the irony is i could say anything i wanted about Bell and your "brother" will be more pissed at ur language(btw i'm not one ;-)
Americans are so easy to get a rise out of rofl
excerpt: "BELL: The issue is not saving the poor—it's saving us. When Jesus uses the word hell, He does not use the word with people who are not believers or not believing the right things. It is a warning to religious people that they are in danger of hell because of their indifference to the suffering of the world. So the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not what heaven and hell are like. It's a parable to rich people warning them that their apathy has them in danger. Heaven and hell are present realities that extend into the future. For a lot of Americans, this is about the saving of their own soul. Recapturing God's heart for the world. Otherwise I will end up not caring and not passionate. At our church, people are desperate to understand this culture of excessive materialism. We were made to bless the world. The original call is that blessing was always instrumental. When that blessing gets misconstrued as favoritism you have a very toxic thing happening. Our people are desperate to give, hardwired for it. I assume that people are good and just need opportunities.
DOOR: Um, we're getting the impression we might not see you on TBN anytime soon.
BELL: Ha. I think that's one of the most warped ideas—that God just can't wait to bless you. God blesses you so you will bless the world and if at any point I keep that for myself, then I am in trouble.
DOOR: Speaking of trouble, the Church hasn't always been the safest place to be real. You've gotta be catching some heat ....
BELL: Hmm. I don't read reviews, but apparently there are some people out there who feel that God or Jesus is being threatened. I catch wind of things, some people are pretty cranked up but it's not something I spend any time on. You can't take people somewhere they don't want to go. For every fundamentalist you piss off there are probably five more who start listening. For a lot of people it's like, "Oh, we can talk about that? Well, now you've got my attention." You know the issue is whether or not it's true and whether or not it's compelling. Someone asked me the other day, "What's the demographic of your people?" I was like "I dunno—sinners?"
DOOR: Actually, your church is one of the hottest churches in America.
BELL: I don't even know what that means. I know there's a woman in the second row in the second service that has cancer for the third time. I know there's a single mom named Erin who needs a place to live. I know this guy who just got custody of his kids and he's trying to figure out how to be a single dad. So to me a Church is real people trying to figure it out. The word hottest isn't really a word I associate with a community of Christians. (laughs) For my wife and me it's very important that we live as close as possible to a normal life in our city. So words like hottest and up and coming are not reality and not a place to live. It's a dead end road. "
Thks for the laugh
Sheesh...
You said "he's not going to dress it up and make it fancy or even advertise it"
Maybe not the pod,but he done a damn good job with his dvd,there everywhere..
What Christan pastor as sold his image so well?? He comes across as relevant & politically appealing and soooo cool..LOL he still thinks he's in a rock band,well lets face it if you can charge for ur gigs why wouldn't you GENIUS !!
He as much a sell out as the people he rebelled against in the first place..Same old story i care i care i care hummm could u stand in line and i will sign ur book
$$$$$$ZZZZZ
TJ- I'm sorry for the hurt you've endured. I can "hear" it in your comment. I pray God brings you the healing and peace you need...
But, I'm not sure about putting Rob Bell in a separate category. I think he's a powerful teacher and preacher. I've been to his church and I love it. And yes, I agree that he is very humble and certainly Christ-centered. But, he's the guy everyone's talking about. He goes on national speaking tours and sells tickets. He's definitely the IT guy right now among Christians who want to think they are progressive and cool. I really don't have anything at all against Bell, but if you're going to call for an end to celebrity Christianity, I think it's only honest to include him.